Investing in Perennials

0:00:00 Elizabeth McCarthy: Welcome back to Digging in. I’m Elizabeth McCarthy, Tarrant County Master gardener, your host and fellow soil enthusiast. Today’s episode is about perennial power, and we’re talking about one of the best investments you can make into your North Texas garden. Perennials Walk into any North Texas garden center in the fall, and it’s really hard to behave yourself. There’s color everywhere. Annuals, perennials, cool season favorites. And suddenly that empty spot in the flower bed is calling your name.

0:00:34 Elizabeth McCarthy: And if you’re anything like me, you went in for one plant. But while those annuals give us beautiful color, right now fall is the perfect time to think about the plants we want around for the long haul. The temperatures are beginning to fall, but the soil is still warm. And those new perennials have time to concentrate on something we gardeners don’t always get very excited about the roots. Your plants may not be putting on much of a show above ground, but underneath they’re getting established, settling in before winter, and setting themselves up for a strong return in the spring.

0:01:08 Elizabeth McCarthy: Today we’ll talk about why fall is such a good time to plant, how to choose perennials that can actually handle our North Texas conditions, and how to give them the best possible start. Later, I’ll be joined by fellow Tarrant county master gardener Cheryl Whited, an incredible gardener, teacher and someone who has been a wonderful mentor to me around here. Though you’ll probably hear me call her Mama Sis.

0:01:30 Elizabeth McCarthy: We’re kindred sisters. We’re just born a generation or so apart. When it comes to gardening, there isn’t much Mama Sis doesn’t know. I can’t wait for you to meet her and hear some of that wisdom for yourself. So grab your mug. Sadly, we probably still need ice in it. Settle in and let’s dig in. Okay, friends, so what’s growing on in North Texas this week? Well, this week we’re getting a little wild because it’s time to start thinking about wildflowers.

0:01:59 Elizabeth McCarthy: Now, I know spring is when we see those beautiful Texas wildflowers, but fall is when the magic really begins. For many of our native wildflowers, September and October are prime time for getting seeds on the ground. That gives the seeds time to settle in, experience the cooler temperatures of fall and winter, and get ready to put on that spring show. But despite what the bag of wildflower seed might have you believe, growing wildflowers involves a little more than tossing seeds out your window and hoping for the best.

0:02:30 Elizabeth McCarthy: Start with good seed to soil contact, clear away heavy vegetation and leaf litter where you’re Sowing so those seeds can actually reach the soil. And here’s a little trick. When you’re ready to spread them. Wildflower seeds can be tiny. So try mixing your seed with some dry sand before you broadcast it. The sand adds bulk and makes those little seeds much easier to spread evenly. You can even divide your mixture in half.

0:02:55 Elizabeth McCarthy: Spread the first half walking in one direction, then turn and spread the other half going the opposite direction. Think of it as mowing the lawn, except instead of grass clippings, you’re leaving behind future flowers. Once your seed is down, resist the urge to bury it. Many wildflower seeds need light to germinate. What you really want is good seed to soil contact. So lightly press or tamp the seed into place.

0:03:19 Elizabeth McCarthy: And one thing to remember, wildflower seeds aren’t all the same. And neither is the way they want to wake up. Some need a little special treatment before they’ll germinate, while others are perfectly happy letting Mother Nature handle the job. So before you start soaking, sanding, chilling, or otherwise messing with your seeds, check the germination instructions for the particular wildflowers you’re planting.

0:03:41 Elizabeth McCarthy: Sometimes the best thing you can do is just get out of their way and finally choose wildflowers that actually belong here. A pretty picture on a seed packet doesn’t necessarily mean everything inside is well suited to North Texas. So if you’ve been dreaming about bluebonnets, Indian blankets, wine cups, or just a little patch of Texas that’s a bit more wild, don’t wait until you see those wildflowers blooming next spring and think, I should have planted some of those.

0:04:08 Elizabeth McCarthy: The time to start that spring show is now. And that’s what’s growing on. Okay, friends, I’m excited. Now it’s time to dig in with my sweet friend Cheryl, who I’ve told you about. I’m not gonna call her Cheryl anymore. Cause she’s my mom assist. And she might share that story later. But Cheryl, I’m so glad you’re here. I know that you are the knowledge of all things perennial. And I know a lot of people are really excited to plant perennials this fall in their yard. And so I just personally thank you so much for being here. And welcome to Digging in.

0:04:42 Cheryl Whited: Okay, I’m hugging you virtually. Okay, thank you. Thank you. I will say real fast, I’m Mama sis because you’re baby sis. Because I’m 17 years older than you, girl.

0:04:50 C: Okay.

0:04:50 Cheryl Whited: I was in high school graduating when you were born.

0:04:53 Elizabeth McCarthy: Yeah, yeah, that happens sometimes. But you’re still my favorite. You’re my favorite mama sis.

0:04:58 Cheryl Whited: Thank you. Thank you. Hey, so we’re going to talk about perennials. And I love the word perennial because it’s think perpetual. Just, you know, things just continuing on and on. Right.

0:05:08 Elizabeth McCarthy: For the long haul.

0:05:09 Cheryl Whited: Yes. And I love quotes. Okay, so think about this one garden like you will live forever. Because technically, if we were to take the most ultimate care of a plant, a tree especially, it really shouldn’t ever die from old age. Right?

0:05:25 Elizabeth McCarthy: Okay.

0:05:26 Cheryl Whited: But then there’s human interference, there’s chemical interference, pesticides, pest pressure, climate change, storms. That’s why we don’t have just lots and lots of thousand year old trees. But we do have them in the world. So imagine that if we garden.

0:05:42 Elizabeth McCarthy: Like you’re gonna live forever with the trees. I love it. My sister always reminds me that the best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago.

0:05:50 C: Yes.

0:05:50 Cheryl Whited: And the second best time today. That’s right.

0:05:52 Elizabeth McCarthy: That’s right.

0:05:53 Cheryl Whited: So you know, so I will talk.

0:05:57 Elizabeth McCarthy: It’s a big topic.

0:05:57 Cheryl Whited: It is, it is. And so I want to start by talking about trees and shrubby perennials and things like that. But keep in mind that like I said, these plants have the potential to outlive us, outlive our children, our grandchildren.

0:06:17 Elizabeth McCarthy: You’re talking about the perennials that I’m about to go buy at the store and put in my yard this fall?

0:06:21 Cheryl Whited: Absolutely.

0:06:22 Elizabeth McCarthy: Okay, girl, get after it. What am I going to plant in my north Texas yard that’s going to be here for my grandkids? Okay, go.

0:06:29 Cheryl Whited: Well, of course I need to be in your backyard to really give you more ideas.

0:06:32 C: Okay.

0:06:33 Cheryl Whited: Like the list of plants.

0:06:34 Elizabeth McCarthy: Well, let’s tell everybody else what they should do. So.

0:06:37 Cheryl Whited: So trees, Trees are always going to be first. Cause trees are gonna be like the islands that you create. Right. Okay. And I would say if I. I was counting the trees I’ve already planted this year and I didn’t need to plant any trees. I planted eight trees this year.

0:06:53 Elizabeth McCarthy: Okay.

0:06:54 Cheryl Whited: Most of those are fruit trees. Cause I’m veering that way and we’ll talk about in a little bit.

0:06:58 Elizabeth McCarthy: But always wanted an orchard. I have started one. But I mean, it’s not quite an orchard yet, but it’s going to be.

0:07:04 Cheryl Whited: It will.

0:07:04 Elizabeth McCarthy: That’s right, it will be. It will grow into one.

0:07:06 Cheryl Whited: Absolutely.

0:07:07 Elizabeth McCarthy: Okay, so trees, what else are thinking?

0:07:10 Cheryl Whited: Shrubby bushes.

0:07:11 Elizabeth McCarthy: Give us some examples of shrubby bushes.

0:07:13 Cheryl Whited: Shrubby bushes. Flame Acanthus. Every day as I’m sitting, I have a prayer chair. So as I sit there and look out a Window in the morning I see the hummingbirds coming to my flame acanthus.

0:07:22 Elizabeth McCarthy: Flame acanthus. Flame acanthus. Is that the beautiful orange?

0:07:24 Cheryl Whited: It’s orange. There’s a golden one too. And they’re very boring until they bloom. And I’ve had many people tell me they don’t like them because the flowering season is short. But to have the ruby throated hummingbirds right outside your window, it’s delightful.

0:07:43 Elizabeth McCarthy: It’s a beautiful attractor. Okay.

0:07:45 Cheryl Whited: And they also spread so you can always have babies. So that’s the great thing about a lot of our perennials, in my opinion, is you can divide them and do pass along plants. Right. So this fall, when I’m dividing perennials, if you want more coneflowers, if you want more Henry Duelberg salvia, I’m your girl.

0:08:03 Elizabeth McCarthy: Okay, well, we’re gonna talk about dividing perennials later, later in the season. So for today we’re gonna start. Okay, tell us a few more of the shrubby sort of plants that are native and are perennials that you would highly recommend.

0:08:17 Cheryl Whited: Rock rose is a great one. It’s flower looks like a little hibiscus. It’s hot pink. It too makes babies because it just spits seeds everywhere, which is, I think, another great thing.

0:08:28 C: Sure.

0:08:29 Elizabeth McCarthy: When you say that. So you plant one. Cause I always go home with 4 inch pots and my husband says, honey, we have a big flower bed to fill, so maybe we could have bought the gallon size. But then some of them spread so quickly. So when you say they spread, how fast does that happen? It’s not happening in one season. You’re saying that you would plant maybe 11 gallon flaming acanthus. And by year, what, you might have another one or two.

0:08:56 Cheryl Whited: Sometimes by the second year. Oh, so let’s back up. So let’s say that number one, I would tell you to plant three. Okay. Never, never. Just one.

0:09:04 Elizabeth McCarthy: Never. Just one.

0:09:06 Cheryl Whited: Nature. You very often see things in drifts of 3, 4, 5.

0:09:10 Elizabeth McCarthy: Okay.

0:09:10 Cheryl Whited: You know, 4, 3, 5, 7. We do odd numbers with these things.

0:09:13 Elizabeth McCarthy: Makes sense.

0:09:14 Cheryl Whited: And. But you plant them according to how big they’ll get.

0:09:18 Elizabeth McCarthy: Okay.

0:09:18 Cheryl Whited: And so you always want to check.

0:09:20 Elizabeth McCarthy: And many of these are always on the little marker.

0:09:22 Cheryl Whited: It is. But I always google it too, because I don’t always believe. Oh, I always want a second opinion.

0:09:27 Elizabeth McCarthy: Okay.

0:09:28 Cheryl Whited: I looked up. So my favorite, my absolute favorite of the shrubby, the shrubs is called white mistflower.

0:09:35 Elizabeth McCarthy: Oh, yes, I’ve seen it.

0:09:36 Cheryl Whited: I love that its common name is boneset. B O N E S E T Boneset it is the biggest monarch magnet in the fall that you have ever seen.

0:09:49 Elizabeth McCarthy: I have one for your butterfly garden.

0:09:50 Cheryl Whited: Yes. And it’s just I have one in the front and my neighbor and their friends and people driving down the street stop to take videos of the monarchs. It’s that incredible.

0:10:00 Elizabeth McCarthy: That’s cool. And I’m assuming it’s then related to the Greg’s mist flower.

0:10:05 Cheryl Whited: They have very different habits and they grow very differently. So the one I’m talking, the white mist flower. Mine is now 5ft tall. It’s as tall as me, and it is. Goodness, I don’t know. What is that four feet wide? The tag. This is where I’m going. The tag says that it can get two to six feet tall. So I’m heading for the six foot. And mine is. It says three to four feet wide. So that’s where mine is.

0:10:30 Cheryl Whited: But you give it the hardest prune in late winter because by cutting it way, way down 2/3, you’re cutting off two thirds of the plant. It will shoot up and bloom better the next fall.

0:10:41 Elizabeth McCarthy: Okay.

0:10:41 Cheryl Whited: So anyway, but that’s good to Google

0:10:44 Elizabeth McCarthy: even though you’re reading the tag.

0:10:45 Cheryl Whited: Yes. Because you’re tagged in that situation.

0:10:49 Elizabeth McCarthy: So moving on. Okay, so we have the white mist flower that we love. I always hear a lot about Greg’s mistflower. It’s purple.

0:10:56 Cheryl Whited: It has a purple blue flower. And I think of it, I call it a flowering plant because it doesn’t get woody like.

0:11:03 Elizabeth McCarthy: Oh, it’s not as much as a

0:11:04 Cheryl Whited: shrubbery type, but you only need one of those. This is the rare exception to the rule. I put in one Greg’s mist flower in one bed in 2019. And it has taken. The bed is 25ft long. It has taken over almost half the bed.

0:11:21 Elizabeth McCarthy: Really.

0:11:21 Cheryl Whited: It spreads that wildly. So I’m. I just rip it out now. I’m not real kind. I just rip. Okay. Because. And it doesn’t hurt.

0:11:28 Elizabeth McCarthy: So if you’ve got a pretty big space you want to fill and you know you’ve got time on your side,

0:11:31 Cheryl Whited: Greg’s mistflower is a great choice.

0:11:33 Elizabeth McCarthy: Okay.

0:11:34 Cheryl Whited: Butterflies again. It’s a great nectar plant. When the Monarchs come back in the fall, they’re looking for nectar, and that’s going to be one of the plants they go to perfect. They love it.

0:11:42 Elizabeth McCarthy: Well, I’ll tell you, I got your email and I saw the first email and it says two 20, 26 perennials in my garden. And there was, see 60. And then we move on to perennials in the front yard. And There, we’ll wait for it. 38. And then this list of perennials in my backyard. Oh, look, it’s 60 again.

0:12:03 Cheryl Whited: And I will say it’s amazing. Yeah, I didn’t start out that way. I just. Our yard was a blank canvas. It’s a little over a third of an acre, which is a decent size. It goes uphill or slants downhill, however, whichever way you’re walking.

0:12:15 Elizabeth McCarthy: Right.

0:12:17 Cheryl Whited: There were no trees in the yard, front yard, backyard, just fence line trees. And we have just. I have just.

0:12:28 Elizabeth McCarthy: It has bloomed.

0:12:29 Cheryl Whited: It has bloomed.

0:12:30 Elizabeth McCarthy: It is so stunning.

0:12:31 Cheryl Whited: Thank you. I have just fallen in love with perennials. Number one, my water bill that was $300 in August and September the first two years we were in the property is now. The one I’m getting ready to pay is $175.

0:12:44 Elizabeth McCarthy: Okay.

0:12:45 Cheryl Whited: So I’m. I’m watering strategically. That’s another.

0:12:48 Elizabeth McCarthy: And a lot less.

0:12:49 Cheryl Whited: Yeah, I’m watering two, maybe three times a week when we don’t have a lot of rain. But. But I water at least once a week for an hour. Each of these spots, different drip systems. I don’t have a sprinkler system. So anyway, there was one I wanted to mention, what people call the Texas barometer bush, the Texas sage.

0:13:09 Elizabeth McCarthy: Oh, it’s that one that blooms when it rains or when it’s about to rain or something. Yes, we have those in our yard. And it’s. They’re pretty. But I’ll be honest though, they get pretty.

0:13:18 Cheryl Whited: They get very leggy. So you have to prune them.

0:13:21 Elizabeth McCarthy: Okay.

0:13:21 Cheryl Whited: It’s going back to that harsh pruning.

0:13:24 Elizabeth McCarthy: You have to be hard on them.

0:13:25 Cheryl Whited: You do every year. Yes.

0:13:27 Elizabeth McCarthy: And okay.

0:13:27 Cheryl Whited: Yes.

0:13:28 Elizabeth McCarthy: Because it’s absolutely. They hit the six foot mark. They’re massive.

0:13:31 Cheryl Whited: They do. But again, pollinators will come to them.

0:13:33 Elizabeth McCarthy: Yes. Okay.

0:13:34 Cheryl Whited: But on to flowering plants, which is where if it’s not a tree, then flowering plants are going to be the things I love most. Perennials.

0:13:43 Elizabeth McCarthy: Talk to us.

0:13:43 Cheryl Whited: Cone flowers. Oh, I love those coneflowers. And I’m talking the native coneflower. The hybrid coneflowers are beautiful. The hybrid coneflowers are beautiful, but they tend to only have about a three year life here. And I guess they’re not as hardy because they’ve been. I’m talking the reds and the golds and the oranges, which are just lovely, but they don’t have the stamina to withstand our.

0:14:08 Elizabeth McCarthy: So we’re looking for the yellow ones,

0:14:10 Cheryl Whited: we’re looking for the pink and the pink purple ones. Oh. So our native coneflower is called purple, but it’s pink.

0:14:16 C: Okay.

0:14:17 Elizabeth McCarthy: Welcome to Texas.

0:14:18 Cheryl Whited: But research says that all of our natives have been in existence. They’ve been growing here for. I thought it was thousands of years, but I really checked. They’re saying millions of years. Some of these natives have been here.

0:14:32 Elizabeth McCarthy: They’re going to be here longer than us.

0:14:34 Cheryl Whited: Absolutely.

0:14:34 Elizabeth McCarthy: So the purple coneflower, now, am I correct that it’s an echinacea? It’s an echinacea thing. And so there are medicinal purposes if you want to go that direction?

0:14:42 Cheryl Whited: Absolutely. I use it to make a medicinal salve, but I’m not recommending that to the world.

0:14:46 Elizabeth McCarthy: Right. But it also. Doesn’t it spread like mad?

0:14:51 Cheryl Whited: Nothing like Greg’s nest. Okay. All right. The way it spreads, it puts babies out all around it. And again, when we talk about dividing later, you just take your serrated bread knife and just. And you’ve got four coneflower plants out of one. So it’s lovely. It’s very easy to divide, and you can even sometimes gently pull the babies off. All right. Another one that I love but most people kill because they water it too much is Blackfoot.

0:15:16 Elizabeth McCarthy: That’s probably me.

0:15:18 Cheryl Whited: Well, yeah, I have. So I’m having my first successful season. I planted it last fall.

0:15:23 Elizabeth McCarthy: Okay, what is it?

0:15:24 Cheryl Whited: Blackfoot daisy. It’s a mounding daisy, little white flowers. And I have it strategically placed where it will not get much water.

0:15:33 Elizabeth McCarthy: Okay.

0:15:34 Cheryl Whited: I water it once a week. On purpose.

0:15:35 Elizabeth McCarthy: Sure.

0:15:36 Cheryl Whited: And if it gets more, it gets more.

0:15:37 Elizabeth McCarthy: So maybe if you know of places in your yard that are more dry than others, that would be a great thing to plant.

0:15:42 Cheryl Whited: It really would be.

0:15:43 Elizabeth McCarthy: Now, does it multiply as well, or is it more?

0:15:45 Cheryl Whited: Not like it mounds. I’ve never tried to divide it, so I don’t know. I just know I’ve always killed it before.

0:15:51 Elizabeth McCarthy: Okay. So, you know, hey, this is how we learn. Even master gardeners will kill things, I promise you.

0:15:58 Cheryl Whited: I was told one time great gardeners kill more plants than they successfully grow, so who knows?

0:16:03 Elizabeth McCarthy: It’s probably true.

0:16:04 Cheryl Whited: Yeah. Zexmenia is another one that will spread. It’s a great. Has a pretty little yellow gold flower, and it has real tough foliage that will stick to you like Velcro when you’re pruning it. That’s all right.

0:16:16 Elizabeth McCarthy: And all of these. These are flowering perennials that are available in North Texas, and you feel like are strong contenders to be put in the ground in the fall, and they’ll just go crazy.

0:16:26 Cheryl Whited: These plants are the ones that TRWD includes in their go and grow boxes that we buy for native perennial gardens, pollinator gardens.

0:16:34 Elizabeth McCarthy: So for those of you wondering, the TRWD is the Tarrant Regional Water District, and we do some work with them in terms of water conservation and knowing which plants to plant at the right time to help conserve water in your yard. So super. That’s a great. That’s great to know that they recommend them as well. That’s a high recommendation.

0:16:52 Cheryl Whited: And one more. Black Eyed Susan, Rudbeckia. There are, I cannot tell you how many varieties, but there are at least four native that I grow. There’s one that can get. And when I grew it in Arkansas, it was 10ft tall. It’s called Rudbeckia maxima. Here it only gets to about 6ft tall. So differences in soil.

0:17:10 Elizabeth McCarthy: Sure.

0:17:10 Cheryl Whited: Right, sure.

0:17:11 Elizabeth McCarthy: And what does it ultimately like, what does it look like?

0:17:13 Cheryl Whited: It’s got the yellow gold petals, but it has a long cone flower. Some people call it giant cone.

0:17:19 Elizabeth McCarthy: Yes, I’ve seen that. Yeah.

0:17:20 Cheryl Whited: But again, it’s a pollinator magnet. And it doesn’t. Doesn’t it just look pretty? Yes. And it will again spread from the bottom. You’ll get babies. So that’s another hidden benefit of all these perennial plants. Not the trees, but the others, they’re making their own progeny for the next, you know.

0:17:37 Elizabeth McCarthy: Right, Yep. Okay. So in my garden, I have a sort of a vine need. I need vines. And so it’s sort of like a archways. And it has an area that I grow, for instance, cucumbers or cantaloupe such and so on. So it needs a vine. It needs a vine that I hope it will flower and be beautiful. But even, I mean, even if it’s not always flowering, I’m okay with it, but I don’t want it to die every year. So what do we have? Any perennial vines you would suggest?

0:18:05 Cheryl Whited: I have two that I absolutely love.

0:18:07 Elizabeth McCarthy: Talk to me.

0:18:07 Cheryl Whited: Coral honeysuckle. It’s not as invasive as the Japanese honeysuckle.

0:18:13 Elizabeth McCarthy: Is that the one that I ate when I was a kid?

0:18:15 Cheryl Whited: That’s the one with the little. We probably shouldn’t have done that part. It’s edible.

0:18:20 Elizabeth McCarthy: Oh, okay. Well, that’s good.

0:18:21 Cheryl Whited: But the coral honeysuckle is one of the very first things to bloom in my garden.

0:18:25 Elizabeth McCarthy: Oh, that’s nice.

0:18:26 Cheryl Whited: And it started on a trellis and now it’s growing over a big arch because it is very happy. It’s in a raised bed, so it’s got amended soil and it is still blooming so it started blooming in late February this year. I saw the first little flowers. They were sporadic and then now it’s just happy. And then the other one that I really love also is called crossvine. And crossvine is a cousin of trumpet vine. But it’s hardier to me than trumpet vine. And it doesn’t come up all over. Trumpet vine will come up all over your yard.

0:18:57 Cheryl Whited: You’ll have little bits here and there. It needs to grow on a fence or a very sturdy trellis.

0:19:03 Elizabeth McCarthy: Okay, that’s a question that I had for you. So for instance, a lot of times I know I grow my own food. And so we do a lot of different unique and interesting things. And one of the ways that we mulch our areas is with living vines. And most of the time it’s things like sweet potato vine or something and it just covers all the ground. And that keeps me from having to have mulch, but it does keep the moisture in. So are perennial vines like that? Can they grow along the ground in ways like that or do they really need to be on something and wrap themselves all up and go.

0:19:38 Cheryl Whited: In my experience, they need to go up.

0:19:39 Elizabeth McCarthy: Okay.

0:19:40 Cheryl Whited: Because they will get leggy. And so for example, mine grows along a six foot, the cross line wooden fence. And it has gone from being about a six foot width to. It’s probably 30ft long now.

0:19:54 Elizabeth McCarthy: Oh, goodness.

0:19:55 Cheryl Whited: And that’s from 2018 till now 2026. Eight years. It blooms early. But what I love, every time it rains, it reblooms. Oh, that’s nice. And it attracts the bumblebees early on, so you’ll see their little rear ends wiggling in the flowers. And there’s a. In fact, do you remember when you cut that dead cross vine off of the arbor at the demonstration garden?

0:20:17 Elizabeth McCarthy: Yes, I did.

0:20:18 Cheryl Whited: That was cross vine.

0:20:19 Elizabeth McCarthy: So you remember how thick.

0:20:20 Cheryl Whited: Yeah, those had been there quite a while. But it’s a great plant.

0:20:24 Elizabeth McCarthy: It reminded me of wine vines. Yes. Because when you learn about wine vines, it’s literally a tree. It’s not. It doesn’t. You don’t think. Think about vines. When it’s the base of it, it looks like a tree. Truly.

0:20:34 Cheryl Whited: But then the only other. I can’t think of another one that I would use as a ground coverage annual.

0:20:43 Elizabeth McCarthy: Yeah, sure. Okay. So what are some other perennials that are your favorites that for instance, this fall you are going to plant it? Well, you’ve already got it, so.

0:20:54 Cheryl Whited: But my husband is yelling in my ear, no more trees. Okay, but people give me trees. It’s like they’ll say, here, I think you can rescue this.

0:21:04 Elizabeth McCarthy: You can rescue anything. What, are we kidding? Rescue it and give it back out as a gift.

0:21:09 Cheryl Whited: Can I name some trees? Because we didn’t do that earlier. So anything in the oak family?

0:21:12 Elizabeth McCarthy: Okay.

0:21:13 Cheryl Whited: Incredible. Red oaks, live oaks, and people are going, wait, wait, what about oak wilt disease? Well, oak wilt is an issue, but I don’t have any live oaks planted next to my red oaks in my backyard. I have a live oak in the front yard. I have a red oak in the backyard. And I realize they have the underground connections, but everything has been great. And oak wilt disease has not been spotted on my street or in my neighborhood yet. So that’s good. But there are parts of Tarrant county that are really dealing with it to the point that they’re having to treat their trees proactively. But so just. That’s. That’s a caveat.

0:21:47 Cheryl Whited: Bar oaks are. I love their. They’re the ones with the big acorns

0:21:50 Elizabeth McCarthy: that look like

0:21:52 Cheryl Whited: porcupine. Not porcupines, hedgehogs. The cedar elm is a really underrated tree here. It has the little yellow leaves in the fall, yellow gold leaves in the fall, unassuming leaves in the spring, but it’s just so darn tough.

0:22:08 Elizabeth McCarthy: Oh, it’ll last through our nightmare weather.

0:22:10 Cheryl Whited: You’ll see it in medians where there was never any irrigation when they were planted.

0:22:15 C: Wow.

0:22:15 Cheryl Whited: They’re thriving. A lot of them live through the drought of 2011, 2012.

0:22:22 C: Right.

0:22:23 Elizabeth McCarthy: And that’s. Tell me again that name of that one.

0:22:25 Cheryl Whited: Cedar Elm.

0:22:26 Elizabeth McCarthy: Cedar elm. Okay, so those are oaks and elms. Okay. What are some other trees that you love?

0:22:32 Cheryl Whited: Other red buds here? Oh, yes, I love red buds. And there are different varieties. I am not a huge crepe myrtle fan. They are adapted. They’re not a native. I have just seen even I had three in my yard in a year. We got crape myrtle bark scale disease, and I just removed them. Of course, I have sprouts coming up again.

0:22:53 Elizabeth McCarthy: Sure. That one’s a hard one, too. It wants to be there when you plant it.

0:22:56 Cheryl Whited: So they are gorgeous and they have their place. But you’ll have to be proactive and treat the ground with the insecticidal drench if you get scale. Little white bugs.

0:23:04 Elizabeth McCarthy: All right, well, that’s great. What are some other perennials? I know later in the season, we’ll be talking a lot about bulbs. More in the wintertime. Rick’s been here and continues to teach us about vegetables and all things like that. Go ahead. I see your smile and your face. You’re excited. Share it.

0:23:22 Cheryl Whited: Because there are. And people forget there are perennial herbs, perennial vegetables. Of course, fruit trees are perennial. Perennial bulbs. So there’s so much that’s perennial. There’s so much that could outlive us.

0:23:36 Elizabeth McCarthy: You know what I learned recently? There are perennial weeds versus annual weeds, and I did not know there was a difference. Yes. So it’s funny what we learn. It is. Okay, so are there vegetables or fruits or bulbs that you really want to mention in terms of ones that you have had success in the perennial vein with and especially in fall?

0:23:58 Cheryl Whited: In the fall is when we plant daffodils and there are some lilies that can be planted and crocus, grape hyacinth. And they just come back every year. And we get asked every year. The Master Gardeners do. Well, what about tulips? We plant tulips in the fall. Yes, we do. But they’re treated as an annual here for most people. And yes, you’re extremely lucky and have just. It has to be this most incredible microclimate, right?

0:24:24 C: Yes, yes.

0:24:25 Elizabeth McCarthy: People don’t realize they really are one and done flower. They’re annuals. Some places, maybe not.

0:24:30 Cheryl Whited: Yes. And yet our daffodils and our crocuses and grapefruits, they just spread. And every four or five years, you’re going to want to divide them.

0:24:39 Elizabeth McCarthy: Okay.

0:24:39 Cheryl Whited: Yeah. Dividing is big. Can you tell?

0:24:42 Elizabeth McCarthy: It is.

0:24:42 C: I know you.

0:24:43 Elizabeth McCarthy: I know that you grow all things. And so my sweet mama sis does, I would say, a vast majority of her work in the greenhouses in the Master Gardener program. So any, anything, absolutely anything that needs to be grown, needs to be seeded, needs to be sent to the plant hospital, all of it. That would be you that we rely on. So is there any other particular right now, tips where you’re thinking, okay, if I’m headed out to the store today and I’m going to plant, what are your thoughts on a practical tip?

0:25:18 Cheryl Whited: Compost. Compost. So I do all of my garden prep or as much as I can in the fall anyway. So I clean out beds, whatever needs to be done to get ready to plant for falls. And I’m talking ornamental beds and vegetable, fruit, whatever. So the most important thing for me is to feed everything with compost. I feed my trees with compost once a year. I put just a layer all around out to the drip line. That is how they get fed. I feed all of the everything.

0:25:50 Cheryl Whited: Everything on my list of perennials is

0:25:53 Elizabeth McCarthy: fed with compost and so, just to double check, do you make compost? Do you buy compost? Is there, like a certain type of compost? Like, is it organic or not organic, or it has this in it or that? A lot of times people say, is it cow compost? Is it dairy compost? Like what? What? Talk a little bit more specific about the choices you would make specifically related to feeding your perennial plants in the fall with more compost.

0:26:17 Cheryl Whited: So I have nine compost bins, and I put garden waste, I put kitchen waste, everything in there that you would expect. But I cannot make enough compost for my entire yard. So I buy organic bagged compost. Okay. Which is very reasonable. I don’t recommend mushroom compost because it’s so heavy and dense, it doesn’t spread well. I don’t recommend straight manure of any kind, although it has its place, if you let it sit for a while, a long time. Yeah, rabbit litter and chicken litter, those

0:26:55 Elizabeth McCarthy: kinds of things are good.

0:26:56 Cheryl Whited: Yes, those will work. But I’m always real cautious because I don’t want the nitrogen to burn whatever I’m getting ready to transplant into those beds or to add.

0:27:05 Elizabeth McCarthy: So we’re not cheating as master gardeners or really as just regular gardeners. When we go to the big store and we buy a bag of just organic compost and then lay it around. And would you say how deep? I mean, how much would you put in? I know it all matters on how big your planting area is, but also an inch or two. I mean, just around it all, just around the plants, the whole bed. I mean, what are we talking?

0:27:29 Cheryl Whited: I tried 2 inches, and I literally stick my finger in it because that’s about 2 inches, and that works. If a bed is newer, I may just top dress it because I already started that bed with compost.

0:27:43 Elizabeth McCarthy: Sure.

0:27:44 Cheryl Whited: So compost is just.

0:27:46 Elizabeth McCarthy: Is your friend.

0:27:47 Cheryl Whited: It is my friend.

0:27:47 Elizabeth McCarthy: Fantastic.

0:27:48 Cheryl Whited: And it makes life easier because then in the spring, I can focus on annuals. I’m not worried about the perennials.

0:27:53 Elizabeth McCarthy: Gotcha. Well, we are really, really grateful that you came to talk to us about perennials. And I know you’re gonna come back later in the season and sort of Talk about the 2.2.0 version in terms of how to prune and how to take care of them once they really are established. But I know lots of our listeners are going to be out buying perennials soon and putting them in their yard. And so we really appreciate your time and your energy and all of your knowledge in letting us just vacuum it right out of your head. For the podcast. And we will look forward, sweet mama sis, to seeing you soon. Thank you so much.

0:28:25 Cheryl Whited: Thank you, sweetie.

0:28:30 Elizabeth McCarthy: Well, hello, friends. It’s time again to talk about what’s bugging you. And my friend Donna is here with a help desk, and today we’re going to talk about mulch. Donna, there’s lots of questions and people. I just know that even personally, I have a lot of questions about mulch. So I’m so excited you’re here today to answer some of those. Talk to us a little bit about what you see on the help desk in terms of questions for mulch.

0:28:51 C: Well, it’s very varied, so I’m not going to go into it, you know, specific questions because we get all different stripes questions about mulch. You know, what should I use? How should I use it? You know, do I use this kind of mulch versus this kind of mulch?

0:29:05 Elizabeth McCarthy: Okay, blah, blah, blah.

0:29:06 C: So we get a lot of different questions. So I’m just going to kind of talk about mulch in general. First of all, why we mulch. We keep the soil temperature down. It helps, you know, keep the water and the moisture in and the moisture in the soil. It does suppress weeds. It’s not going to get rid of weeds, but it does suppress them.

0:29:26 Elizabeth McCarthy: It helps. Yeah, you can take it.

0:29:27 C: It looks nice.

0:29:28 Elizabeth McCarthy: It does.

0:29:28 C: It looks nice. Everybody likes that fresh mulch look. And it also can control erosion. Is another thing that will help with. Now, in your vegetable garden, you can actually use newspaper between your rows. You could even use plastic.

0:29:47 Elizabeth McCarthy: Plastic. Say more about that. What kind of plastic am I gonna put? Oh, sheeting.

0:29:51 C: Okay, sheeting. Plastic sheeting between the rows of your vegetables. So, you know, that’s the cheap way out. You know, you probably got it at your house.

0:30:00 Elizabeth McCarthy: Okay.

0:30:01 C: Now, on your. Not your vegetable gardens, but on your regular flower landscape, against the foundation and stuff like that, you want to use a more natural mulch.

0:30:10 Elizabeth McCarthy: Okay, so what are some examples that you have found sort of between just your research. What are some really great ones, or even just a handful of the ones that. Absolutely. They’ll work every time.

0:30:22 C: Hardwood mulch, and particularly native hardwood mulch, if it’s here from Texas, that’s a good thing. Okay, so because you’re doing. You’re using what we have naturally here, right? It breaks down. It makes. It sends nutrients back into the soil as it’s breaking down.

0:30:37 Elizabeth McCarthy: It’s a great idea.

0:30:39 C: So it’s a great option. You will have to refresh it a couple of times a year because it does break down. Pretty rapidly.

0:30:44 Elizabeth McCarthy: Oh, okay.

0:30:46 C: The other one is cedar. A lot of people like that smell, and the bugs don’t like that smell. So it can be a nice little kind of repellent for the bugs. And it breaks down very slowly.

0:30:59 Elizabeth McCarthy: Oh, that’s good.

0:31:00 C: So you only have to put it

0:31:02 Elizabeth McCarthy: once a year at most.

0:31:04 C: It does break down pretty slow. A lot of people also like to use pine needles.

0:31:09 Elizabeth McCarthy: I’ve seen that.

0:31:10 C: Yeah, we don’t have a lot of that here because we don’t have many pine trees. But you go to East Texas and they’re everywhere. It’s very popular. It breaks down super fast. You’ll have to definitely do it twice a year.

0:31:23 Elizabeth McCarthy: I’ve seen people do that on things like blueberries or things that just need more acid here.

0:31:28 C: That’s right. It will change your soil ph very slightly over time. Not huge, but a little bit. And the other thing, too, believe it or not, is your pine needles are a little bit of an insect repellent, too, because they don’t like crawling all

0:31:44 Elizabeth McCarthy: up and down over that.

0:31:46 C: Actually can work pretty well as an insect repellent, too.

0:31:51 Elizabeth McCarthy: Fantastic. Okay, talk to me about how deep is mulch supposed to be? I’ve seen, you know, oh, it needs to be four inches deep. Well, it needs to be two inches deep and four inches of mulch. It’s significant amount of mulch.

0:32:03 C: Yes.

0:32:03 Elizabeth McCarthy: It’s way more than I even envisioned when I went to actually putting 4 inches of mulch down.

0:32:10 C: Did you measure it?

0:32:11 Elizabeth McCarthy: Well, see, you and I were. You said earlier in other podcasts, you just sort of go with it, and I’m one of the ones that’s a little bit type A. So, yes, I did measure it, and you’re welcome to make fun of me for that. I can be a mulch geek. But talk about that. What’s the importance? Are there specific places it needs to be deeper than others, or is there just a standard, or you just throw it out there and move on?

0:32:32 C: Well, you know, depends on what kind of gardener you are. But three inches.

0:32:36 Elizabeth McCarthy: She’s calling me out, friends.

0:32:38 C: Three inches is kind of what Texas A and M recommends.

0:32:41 Cheryl Whited: Okay.

0:32:41 C: At least three inches. Okay.

0:32:42 Elizabeth McCarthy: So on everything around your tree or in your vegetable garden, whatever, there’s one

0:32:46 C: place you never want 3 inches. Matter of fact, there’s one place you don’t want any inches. Oh, yes. And that is right around the stem or the trunk of your tree. Got it.

0:32:56 Elizabeth McCarthy: So how far away from a tree trunk would you say it needs to be?

0:33:00 C: Well, if you look at Your tree, there will be like root flares that come out. You probably have seen this.

0:33:06 Elizabeth McCarthy: Yes.

0:33:07 C: You don’t want.

0:33:07 Elizabeth McCarthy: Right on the ground.

0:33:08 C: Yeah. You don’t want to cover up those flares.

0:33:10 Elizabeth McCarthy: Okay.

0:33:11 C: So when you see a tree that goes straight into the ground and mulch right up to it.

0:33:15 Elizabeth McCarthy: Yes.

0:33:15 C: That’s too much bad.

0:33:16 Elizabeth McCarthy: Right.

0:33:17 C: Those root flares need to be showing.

0:33:19 Elizabeth McCarthy: So when you see the tree with the ring, it’s correct. With a ring of mulch around it.

0:33:23 C: As long as that mulch is, you know, the flare is showing. Basically.

0:33:27 Cheryl Whited: Okay.

0:33:28 C: Now on your other plants, like your perennials and things like that, you just want to leave like a little donut around.

0:33:34 Elizabeth McCarthy: Don’t touch the stem.

0:33:35 C: Exactly. Because that’s going to cause more problems than inhibit growth and things.

0:33:42 Elizabeth McCarthy: Sure, Absolutely. Okay. Now what about mulches that are sold regularly and all the places you go that you absolutely do not want to buy or you just. It’s just a really not recommended at all From Texas A and M. That

0:33:55 C: would be rubber mulch. We don’t want any rubber, you know, synthetic thing around you. And it does look nice from the street. But no, absolutely no rubber. And we don’t want to use dyed mulches, which is very popular.

0:34:11 Elizabeth McCarthy: Do you mean the bag of like the black mulch and the red? My brown.

0:34:16 C: It looks really nice. I know.

0:34:18 Elizabeth McCarthy: My husband loves that black mulch. My whole yard is black.

0:34:20 C: Everybody does.

0:34:21 Elizabeth McCarthy: Okay.

0:34:22 C: But the downside is they’ve dyed that, so that is not natural. And we don’t want that dye in your soil.

0:34:30 Elizabeth McCarthy: Okay. I’m glad you corrected me. It’s time to mulch my yard here in about a month. And so I will remember to go with hardwood mulch.

0:34:38 C: Hardwood, cedar, or you could do pine needle if you have it.

0:34:44 Elizabeth McCarthy: Well, if that’s everything that we’ve talked about and have been asked, why don’t you remind everyone how they can reach you?

0:34:50 C: Absolutely. You can call us on the help desk, 817-884-1944. Sometimes you will get a live person. If not, you can leave a message. Please remember to leave your zip code and make sure that you leave your phone number because we do not have caller ID downtown. So please leave your phone number so we can call you back. Also, you can email. It’s helpdeskarrantmg.org Once again, please email your phone number so that we can call you back if we have questions.

0:35:24 C: And you can also upload pictures.

0:35:26 Elizabeth McCarthy: So any and everything you have that you have questions about.

0:35:30 C: Yes, anything.

0:35:30 Elizabeth McCarthy: The more information the better.

0:35:32 C: Yeah. Anything. We will tell you if it’s not in our wheelhouse. So just if you have a question, send it on.

0:35:38 Elizabeth McCarthy: I haven’t seen any of those yet. I’d love to hear those stories. Oh, goodness. Another time. Thank you so much for coming and being on the podcast today. We really appreciate you and the work you do.

0:35:48 Cheryl Whited: Thank you. Thank you.

0:35:55 Elizabeth McCarthy: Well, friends, that brings us to our final seed for today. A very special thank you to Cheryl Whited for joining me and sharing some of her wisdom about planting perennials in the fall. Cheryl, you’ve reminded us that one of the best things we can do for a beautiful spring garden is actually to get out there and do some work. Now, thank you again to Donna for helping us better understand the art of mulching from our experts at the help desk, and to Steve Cosio, our producer who keeps digging in sound engineering polished, even when the rest of us are just out here playing in the dirt.

0:36:24 Elizabeth McCarthy: Let’s remember that in North Texas, fall isn’t the end of gardening season. It just might be the beginning of your best one yet. Plant those perennials now. Give the roots time to get established. And come spring, you’ll be glad you did. Next time on Digging In. The plot thickens. Literally. My friend Rick Heim and resident veggie nerd is back, and we’re going beyond the basics with Fall Veggie 201.

0:36:48 Elizabeth McCarthy: We planted the seeds in our first episode, and this time Rick is taking us a little deeper into what it takes to keep our North Texas fall vegetable garden growing strong. Until next time, keep learning, keep growing, and don’t be afraid to get a little soil under your nails. Thanks for spending a little time in the garden with me today. Until we meet again, it’s your turn to dig in.